23. Trena White of Page Two: Navigating the New Age of Publishing

EPISODE 23

In this episode, Julie converses with Trena White, co-founder and co-CEO of Page Two, a non-fiction book publishing firm.

Trena shares her journey from traditional publishing to establishing Page Two, emphasizing the shift to a hybrid publishing model that offers authors greater creative control. Trena also shares advice on adaptability, collaboration, and strategic leadership to scale your business.

Catch the Conversation

Trena White of Page Two: Navigating the New Age of Publishing

Julie Ellis

• ABOUT Trena White

  Trena White is co-founder and co-CEO of innovative book publishing firm Page Two, which publishes non-fiction books by leading experts. Page Two has published several books selling over a million copies and its books have been translated into dozens of languages around the world. Trena is a nominee for the RBC Women of Influence Trailblazer Award. Before launching Page Two, she was publisher of Douglas & McIntyre and Greystone Books, Canada’s largest independent book publisher at the time; and an editor at McClelland & Stewart, now an imprint of Penguin Random House.

  You can connect with Trena through her email at trena@pagetwo.com

• EPISODE TIMESTAMPS

  Julie and Trena discuss...
  
  Hybrid Publishing Model (00:03:50) Discussion on the evolution of publishing and the hybrid model's benefits for authors. Trena explains the early efforts to educate authors about their new publishing approach and the transformation in client interest as Page Two's reputation grew.

  Developing a Leadership Team (00:10:30) Gabby's journey from intern to CEO, highlighting trust and internal knowledge. Trena reflects on the complexities of leading a hybrid team post-pandemic.

  Creative Freedom (00:20:31) The importance of adapting systems and documenting processes for smoother growth, scalability, and improved creativity. 

  Long-Term Business Planning (00:25:11) Trena and Jesse's excitement about future planning and new service offerings. Exploring ways to collaborate with authors to sell more books and build their businesses. 

  Long-Term Book Momentum (00:30:57) Strategies for sustaining a book's visibility and relevance over time. The impact of digital marketing and technology on the evolving publishing landscape. The rise of audiobooks and the efficiency of print on demand in publishing.

• EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

  Julie 00:00.87
  Hello and welcome to this episode of Figure 8. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Trena White. Trena is the co-founder and co-CEO of innovative book publishing firm, Page Two, and they publish non-fiction books by leading experts. Page Two has several books they've published that have now sold over 1 million copies. And their books have been translated into dozens of languages around the world. Trena has been nominated for the RBC Women of Influence Trailblazer Award. And before launching Page Two, she was a publisher in the traditional publishing industry at one of Canada's largest independent book publisher and an editor at McClelland and Stewart, which is now part of Penguin Random House.

  Julie 00:47.02
  um And ah she published my book, so I've known her for a long time. And I want to say welcome, Trena.

  Trena 00:56.15
  Hi, Julie. Thanks so much for having me. So good to see you.

  Julie 00:58.74
  Thank you. Oh, it's so good to see you. And I'm so glad that you agreed to come and chat about the publishing industry today, because I think that it's um something that um a lot of people don't know about. And it is a whole area and industry with so many experts in it. And i when I published my book, I had so much to learn.

  Trena 01:21.09
  Yeah, it's it's my pleasure.

  Julie 01:21.96
  Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about how you came to start Page Two.

  Trena 01:28.69
  Yeah, well, ah so my co founder Jesse Finkelstein and I had both worked in traditional book publishing for many years each. And we actually were working in very senior leadership roles in what was then Canada's largest independent book publisher.

  Julie 01:47.25
  Yeah.

  Trena 01:47.60
  and we We weren't friends necessarily, but we really admired each other as colleagues. um And then the company we were working for ah went through a hard financial time, entered creditor protection, and we both found ourselves unemployed. And we ah We were really debating, you know, what next do we leave this industry? Do we start something new? Um and we realized that there was a real opportunity to start a different kind of book publishing company and that the the model we had been working in didn't always serve entrepreneurial authors in the way that it could. Um So we decided to launch our own company

  Trena 02:38.05
  um At the time we called it a book publishing agency, which was new language we invented because there really wasn't a term for what we were doing. um Now the common term is hybrid publishing. And it's basically a model where the publisher really partners with the author to produce the best possible book. And in our case, ah an important focus for us is publishing books that are in alignment with the author's goals for themselves and for their businesses. So um we we you know started out, it was just the two of us and now 10 years later we have a team of 22 people and we publish about 60 books a year all over the world. um Some of them have been big bestsellers like The Coaching Habit.

  Trena 03:30.23
  A book called Exactly What to Say. um But it started with us planning in my living room, basically, with my newborn baby in my lap.

  Julie 03:43.77
  I feel like I feel like babies are a time when we we start to think about why. Why are things done that way? what what you know What could I do differently?

  Trena 03:51.09 Yeah.

  Julie 03:53.31
  Or we see things a little bit differently. There's something about newborn babies and having ideas.

  Trena 03:59.02
  it Yeah, it's true. And, and it was also just a realization that, you know, there were a lot of people who were interested in the the new world of self publishing at the time, you know, self publishing was kind of exploding a decade ago.

  Julie 04:16.49
  Mmhmm.

  Trena 04:16.56
  um And people who wanted to publish books their own way, um to have a lot more creative control over it, a lot more say,

  Trena 04:27.12
  to be heavily involved with the marketing and so on, the branding, but didn't want to just kind of get a book out there.

  Julie 04:32.91
  Right.

  Trena 04:35.10
  You know, they really wanted professional books that were well edited, well sold, well distributed and all of those things.

  Julie 04:38.93 
  Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

  Trena 04:43.57
  So we basically took what we knew from our previous publishing experience, as well as many of our relationships with printers and distributors and, you know, top notch designers and so on. and kind of layered it into the self-publishing mindset um to create this new model in Page Two.

  Julie 05:05.86
  And in the beginning, a decade ago, you did a lot of explaining about what it was. You said you made up the terms and you off you went. And so there's a lot of like selling that you're doing by way of explanation to people, trying to get them on board with a new idea.

  Trena 05:25.20 
  there There really was trying to explain to people, and many many of them were authors who, um in in some cases, they were authors who were with established publishing houses, and they were kind of interested in what we were doing and curious about it, but quite nervous about making that leap. And so we had to do a lot of education around the advantages of this type of publishing, you know

  Julie 05:47.65
  Okay.

  Trena 05:53.60
  having ownership of your IP, for instance, more involvement, um higher earnings if the book performs well, those kinds of things. um and But there was also a mindset that this type of publishing was a bit, it was a bit sort of taboo or people really wanted the prestige of working with a long established traditional publisher. And one of the interesting things for us has been that over the last decade that has changed significantly, where we now talk to people daily who have published in a, you know, with well-established companies, multinational publishing companies, and have decided for various reasons that they want, they're ready to make the change and take the leap. So they already understand the various types of publishing,

  Trena 06:48.68
  They understand what a company like Page Two does. In most cases, they've heard about us through friends of theirs. So they already understand what Page 2 does. um And they come to us really, really interested in working with us.

  Trena 07:02.49
  So we now actually turn down about probably 90% to 95% of the projects that come to us. So it's not quite the sales um process that it used to be.

  Julie 07:15.38
  Wow, that's amazing. That is amazing. And I think it's a reflection of the quality of work that that your team does in the production of the works that you do publish.

  Trena 07:30.19
  Yeah, I would say we have a team that really sees themselves as craft people. They really, you know, they are kind of masters in the craft of design or editing or whatever.

  Trena 07:45.84
  And um we're just, it's a very focused team that um just puts intense care into everything that they do. And I think that's actually one of the things that that has created our reputation and allowed us to grow in the way that we have and to attract the kinds of authors that we do.

  Julie 08:08.90
  Yep. And so as the business has grown and you've you know have a bigger team and more people and all of the all of the things that come with that, and there are many, many good things about growing a business, but there are also things that are challenges, um And I know you were telling me that you hired a COO not too long ago. What has that been like in terms of making that shift to other people being leaders in the company outside of just you and Jesse?

  Trena 08:40.81
  yeah Yeah, it's sort of, when I look back over the last 11 years, I feel like we had a couple of major growth periods. And one was in maybe year three, when we were getting closer, you mentioned earlier, Julie, to the maybe $2 million dollar mark.

  Trena 08:59.90
  And that was a growth, high growth period where we had to hire a whole bunch of people. um And then over the last couple of years, there's been another shift where um we where we We had expanded enough that we really felt that it was too much for Jesse, my co-founder, and me to be as involved in leading each area of the company as it really needed. So what we did was we created a senior leadership team so that there's a director of each area of the company. so

  Trena 09:37.91
  sales director, marketing, production, and so on. um And then we created a COO position. And so those leaders all report to the COO. And what that's done is, first of all, it's Jesse and I, I think, were roadblocks previously in many ways because you know we're just two people. We couldn't possibly um dig in and in the meaningful way to develop new programs and new processes and things like that in the way that we would have liked.

  Trena 10:12.32 
  So now we have the people on the ground who really know their areas doing that. um And then that with our COO, Gabby, she's actually somebody who's been with us almost from the very beginning of our company. So she was our very first intern and we've only had two interns. So um the joke is we our internship program has a really great track record. um We were so small when we first had Gabby in as an intern that we used to share a desk in this little tiny little office.

  Trena 10:46.51
  um But she's somebody who grew with us over the years and ah eventually became a project manager.

  Trena 10:53.31
  And then, a you know, production director and kind of worked her way up. And she's somebody Jesse and I just always felt had the leadership capability that we were looking for kind of um real understanding of how to develop people, a real passion for developing people, a real passion for systems operations in a way that neither of us particularly does. Um, so putting her in this role has freed us up to step to zoom out a bit.

  Trena 11:32.06 
  Um, you know, we're, we're, we're still really focused on helping her and the leadership team at this stage to develop into their roles, but, but really it's allowing us to step out, think longer term where less about the day-to-day fires and you know things that need to be resolved, more about where are we going? We're thinking bigger picture, more strategically. um And that's hugely exciting for us. I mean, I think that's what every entrepreneur aspires to, right, is kind of getting getting a bit out of the day-to-day management of things.

  Trena 12:12.57
  um So we're focusing more on business development, partnerships, new new services, and that kind of thing.

  Julie 12:21.12
  Yeah, which is exciting and fun, i I'm sure.

  Trena 12:23.73
  it's It's exciting and fun. And then Gabby has just you know and done incredible work to improve many of our systems and operations, the the things that are totally critical to making a company function, you know replicating our process and things like that.

  Julie 12:38.78
  Yeah. her Yep.

  Trena 12:44.33
  um but are just not exciting to to many many entrepreneurs.

  Julie 12:49.90
  Yeah. Well, and in some ways, it's been helpful, I'm sure, to have her grow up through the company. So first of all, because she has a deep knowledge, having worked her way through and seen how everything fits together and how it works, but also because the amount of trust that you and Jesse will have in letting go as she takes the role, because you yeah the she doesn't have a trust bank account she needs to fill up.

  Trena 12:57.87
  Yeah. Yeah.

  Julie 13:17.26
  before you are before you feel comfortable.

  Trena 13:19.64
  Yeah, that that's right. I mean, we've we had been talking between the two of us, Jesse and me, for years, even before we initiated this conversation with Gabby about putting her into some very senior leadership role, um because we just saw that potential in her. and um And then things got a bit delayed because she took a maternity leave and things. so um I think it would have been very hard to hire somebody external and put them into the kind of role that she's in.

  Trena 13:53.08
  She just understands intimately how the entire company works. She knows the whole history. She knows what's worked, what hasn't worked. um She has all kinds of relationships that, you know, she has the trust of the team and including longtime other senior team members.

  Julie 14:08.24 Yeah.

  Trena 14:12.75
  who were quite happy to suddenly be reporting to her because they trusted her and had her confidence.

  Trena 14:18.99
  So yeah, it would have been hard, I think, to do that, to bring somebody in from the outside.

  Trena 14:25.19
  And then our industry is also so, um but it's kind of, you know, requires a specialized knowledge in a way um that, it yeah, this was absolutely the right way to go for us.

  Julie 14:39.30
   Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, overall, the industry is small, you know, in the like in terms of the pool of people you might want for a role like that.

  Trena 14:49.76
  It is small and um the industry, we're based in Vancouver, although we also have several people in Toronto and we sell our books globally.

  Trena 15:02.24
  um the The industry in Vancouver is small too, and it does make a difference having somebody on the ground who we can be with in person.

  Trena 15:14.14
  We're a hybrid company now, but um the pool of kind of local candidates would be even smaller.

  Julie 15:22.51
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, I mean, those are some of the, yeah, you're a hybrid company now. I think that's one of the sort of post pandemic world challenges that a lot of us are facing. It's easy to be all in person, although it doesn't feel easy necessarily, but you know, all in person are all virtual. At least it's an even way of managing and you can have a, you know, ah style When you're hybrid, you have to be so careful about how communication flows and, you know, that the people in person don't know things.

  Julie 15:57.63
  It's hard. It's a challenge for sure as a leader.

  Trena 15:59.18
  it It really is. And you know, a funny thing, Julie, is that I myself was actually a hybrid worker before the pandemic.

  Trena 16:09.41
  um And in the fall of 2019, I was featured in a Globe and Mail art article as a remote CEO, because that was such a rare thing at the time.

  Trena 16:21.60
  um Because I live in a rural community, and then I would commute into our office a couple days a week. And Back then, our company was small enough that some of my colleagues would set a laptop up in our office. And I would just zoom in and they would be kind of in the background. So it was sort of like I was there. um And then, of course, since then, everybody's working from home part of the time. Our team is about double the size it was in five years ago.

  Trena 16:53.30
  um So those kinds of um ideas are not practical anymore. and You do have to be really, really intentional about the flow of communication, um making sure that everybody has the same information.

  Julie 17:02.23
  Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

  Trena 17:10.05
  And it's still a bit of a challenge, to be honest. I do i do find it to be

  Trena 17:18.97
  Um, you know, it's, it's like, there are more meetings than ever in a way, because we're trying to fill the gap of those in-person conversations that we used to have.

  Trena 17:29.93 Um, and even using tools like Slack and things don't quite replicate the kind of in-person creative interaction that we have.

  Julie 17:40.43
  Well, and it is probably a combination because if you say, you know, if we think about five years ago, we're really talking about the period sort of just before the pandemic to now.

  Trena 17:52.77 Mm hmm, mm hmm.

  Julie 17:53.02
  So there's been so much change. But I think that so there's this workplace change where you've gone from you know, to truly hybrid from mostly in-person to a truly hybrid environment and also doubled your team. So there's like all these different forces from those two things that have kind of come together because once teams get up to a certain size, you do need, there's more HR. There's more human resources that's required. People have more questions.

  Julie 18:24.18
  You need more policies.

  Julie 18:25.46
  You need, you know, you need more scaffolding and structure.

  Trena 18:29.49 
  Yes, you absolutely do, which was another reason for creating this COO position. um And we also hired an external sort of a fractional ah HR director, um which has been incredibly helpful.

  Trena 18:48.30
  She's helped us level up you know or it ah HR policies of all sorts, from employment and agreement agreements to you know leave policies, all kinds of things.

  Trena 19:01.27
  um That's been really helpful.

  Trena 19:04.74
  And again, if Jesse and I were to be doing all of this, just the two of us, it would just be way too much, given that we also need to be focused on business development.

  Julie 19:17.63
  Yes. And so now you've got the freedom to focus on those things.

  Trena 19:23.53
  Yeah, that's right.

  Julie 19:23.80
  And how would you say that's changed your job?

  Trena 19:29.46
  I would say it's what well I mean, one of the things that's been incredible is I feel it's allowed. It's made my job more creative um again. So um really to be able to think about new opportunities in a creative way. To get out of the the weeds really, um for for the team to have other people to go to with all of their questions, that that's made a big difference.

  Trena 20:05.11
  I feel much happier personally, so I feel it's increased my satisfaction as a as ah as an entrepreneur significantly.

  Trena 20:16.51
  um And then it's also just allowed us to do more. So if I look at back, even at the last year of what we've accomplished as a team, it's really quite incredible. And there's just no way we could have done this without our leadership team.

  Julie 20:31.14
  Right. I think that's so interesting because I do think there's this, we all go in bright and shiny with our eyes sparkling as we start businesses because we have these great ideas or we see a need. But then there's there is this like messy middle part where you're like, am I really good at this? How did this become part of my job? Do I really want this? like you know did i do I want all these people reporting to me or all of these operation and systems things or you know whatever it is that isn't kind of in our true gifts that we brought to the table.

  Julie 21:04.99
  And and so it's really encouraging to hear that you've gotten back to that.

  Trena 21:11.42
  It is, it's really, really incredible. um

  Trena 21:16.26 and You know, I remember when we first launched Page Two, we set up this sort of informal advisory board and one of the people on that board said to us, the thing you need to keep in mind as you grow your company is you need to document everything. You need to really establish your process and your systems because That's what someone ultimately will want to buy. And that's what's going to help you scale your company efficiently.

  Trena 21:47.90
  And I remember at the time thinking, it didn't really, I didn't really know what she meant.

  Trena 21:55.17
  And now I do. And let me tell you, it's so much harder to go back and kind of reverse engineer, you know, in a way that if we had really slowed down and documented everything we did along the way,

  Trena 22:11.05
  um It would have made the growth, I think, easier in some ways. um Yeah.

  Julie 22:18.25
  It's one of those interesting things where i know I know we had a lot of conversations at Mables Labels  as it was growing about. So this process or this system isn't scaling with us anymore. we're out of ban you know It's hit reached the limit. So you know how far do we go in terms of like, you know you have this thing where you want the heavy hammer, like you want something that will do it all?

  Julie 22:44.46
  but But in truth, you'll be equally unhappy with that because it's not going to do the job for you either. Like it is this process of how do you get, you know, three or five more years out and then, you know, and hopefully you can do things with enough longevity to get to those next milestones without breaking them. Um, but I think it's hard because you do have this, you know, you want everything, but really the business can handle everything at that point. So you've got to also figure out how to integrate, you know, bite off the right size pieces, so to speak.

  Trena 23:17.96
  It's, it's true. And you're right. I mean, it is also a process of constantly reevaluating. So what's, what's broken, what no longer makes sense given the size we're at now, where we can't just and and we're not all in the same room.

  Trena 23:34.47
  So we can't just lean over and say, Hey, this thing is happening, right? What?

  Trena 23:39.93
  How do you have this build the scaffolding, as you say, to to grow with the company.

  Trena 23:46.41
  it's ah That's a real challenge. And thankfully, other people at Page Two have a head for it.

  Julie 23:54.76
  That is, and it is great because yeah, when you don't, when you get stuck doing work that doesn't like, isn't in your kind of zone of genius, it's very draining and very hard to be excited about the rest of the work.

  Trena 24:07.72
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  Trena 24:10.93
  That's right. Yeah Jesse and I entered this year ready to start doing some long-term business planning, thinking about where are we going next? What's, you know, what are the new um products or services that we want to be offering?

  Trena 24:31.87
  um And it's just so invigorating to be thinking that way. It's almost like a second, chance at a startup phase in a way.

  Julie 24:42.85
  Yeah. And thinking about, yeah, what are there what other things could you bring to help the people that the authors that you work with um you know sell more books and build bigger businesses themselves, right?

  Trena 24:49.66
  Exactly.

  Julie 24:54.52
  Because it is like this you know it's part of that ecosystem, right?

  Julie 24:58.78
  you know The authors, as you grow, you can take on authors that have bigger profiles and in return they can build even bigger profiles and you know everybody can kind of grow and and blossom together which I think is a really nice part about your business and what you're doing.

  Trena 25:16.66
  Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And so that's the question we're asking ourselves and authors to, you know, what is it that you really need from us?

  Trena 25:28.41
  What what more can we be doing to help you? um What are the what are the challenges for you with publishing your book? Whereas, you know, in our early days, we were asking, you know, people we knew kind of out in the world, what would you be looking for in a book publisher? Now we have this amazing pool of people to draw on. And because we publish so many business books and also self-help books, we have this incredible brain trust of authors who really understand entrepreneurship, culture, all of these things that are so important, leadership,

  Trena 26:07.38
  um And so we get the most insightful input from them. And that's what we're using to shape the next phase of the company.

  Julie 26:17.10
  Which I think is a really, you know, having those real relationships with the people that are, you're working with, I think is, is a real rarity today in business in a lot of cases.

  Trena 26:32.69
  Yeah, maybe so. it's the you know, there are authors, there are clients, but it is, I think it's maybe part of our, it's part of our process and the way hybrid publishing ideally works.

  Trena 26:48.42
  We really see it as, we see our job as facilitating an exchange of information between us and our authors. So they're bringing an understanding of their audience and their material and their IP. We're bringing an an understanding of book publishing and we merge those things to make the best possible book, but that merging can happen in all kinds of other ways. I mean, I have many authors I've built really quite close relationships with and it is, you know, there's something about the length of the work we do with an author.

  Trena 27:25.14
  It's usually 12 to 18 months we're working with them.

  Trena 27:28.93
  The fact that the book is, their baby and it's like it has so much importance to them and their companies.

  Trena 27:39.36
  It's a very personal kind of process and does lead to some quite authentic relationships.

  Julie 27:47.76
  yeah Yeah, it's true. I think it's the there's a vulnerability to it as you you know launch your ideas out into the world in such a formal kind of way.

  Trena 27:59.41
  Absolutely.

  Julie 28:00.79
  Yeah, definitely.

  Trena 28:01.68
  Yeah, a lot of fears and anxieties that come along with that process. Yeah.

  Julie 28:08.24
  definitely Well, I think it's exciting. I mean, it feels like you're positioned now to grow in a different way than you have in the past, which was you know sort of like volume of books send revenue and And now instead of it sort of being in a vertical, you're starting to look at other ways to make bigger projects from some of the things you are already working on.

  Trena 28:35.53
  That's, that's exactly it. I mean, there are certain things every author wants and needs when they launch their book, you know, they, they all need support with social media and they need, you know, there's various things.

  Trena 28:49.46
  And so what we're trying to do now is to bring as many of as many supports as possible to each author to make it easy for them so that we can just integrate the kind of support that they need to launch their book effectively.

  Trena 29:07.88
  um You know, the book publishing is our core expertise, but we're building partnerships with a number of people to help us um go go deeper with each author.

  Julie 29:17.77
  Yeah, which is great because I think I said to you when we were chatting before we recorded this, it's it's it's at the start line, right? The day your book comes out and your date, your book birthday ah is a start line of whole other part of being an author, um which is different than the writing and the editing and the thinking and the you know working to get all of those pieces right.

  Trena 29:35.09
  That's right.

  Julie 29:42.37
  the actual living, breathing thing comes into the world and you have to you know sell it and nurture it and all of the things that come with that is a very different part of the process, but equally as rigorous.

  Trena 29:55.97
  Absolutely. And, you know, it used to be in the book publishing industry that people would think of the book launch phase as maybe six weeks or a month or a couple of months. Um, now we coach our authors to think of the book launch period as a year to two years. Um, it's, it's really, how are you going to keep getting that book in front of people?

  Trena 30:22.27
  How are you going to bake it into your business? You know, so that your corporate clients are buying it in bulk, for instance, and everyone you deliver a keynote to is getting a copy. Um, those, those kinds of long term plays can really keep the book's momentum going.

  Julie 30:41.36
  Yeah. Yes. And certainly people don't want to come out with a new book every year. So that would be impossible nearly.

  Julie 30:49.67
  So you do want to continue to see life out of the things that you create when you're on this side as the entrepreneur who's trying to put the, you know, put all your thoughts into something.

  Trena 30:55.96
  Yeah, exactly.

  Julie 31:02.02
  You want, you want something that will last as well.

  Trena 31:05.42
  Exactly, exactly.

  Julie 31:05.83
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is so interesting. I think even, you know, just, I mean, a decade ago, who would have thought that Amazon would end up in being like such a huge force in book selling and like so, you know, and I imagine it's with the pace of change these days, it's going to continue to evolve, you know, how people consume books and how they're sold and what, you know, it'll be interesting.

  Trena 31:31.64
  Yeah. Yeah, there's, it it's an industry that's constantly changing. I mean, it's ah ah for people who come from sort of the digital marketing space, they sometimes find our industry kind of archaic in many ways, but it is constantly evolving.

  Trena 31:48.67
  You know, audiobooks, for instance, now have really exploded. A lot of people prefer to listen to their books, um rather than to actually read them. Print on demand is now a really critical part of book publishing. We, for to sell our books in Australia, in fact, most of our books there are now printed through print on demand because it's just exponentially faster to get the books into the market than to actually ship books on a boat.

  Julie 32:17.21
  Yes. And books are are big and heavy, relatively speaking, right?

  Trena 32:23.69
  Yeah, so there's just new technology is changing the industry all the time and creating various efficiencies. um And some of these digital changes are are helpful from a sustainability perspective as well, you know, print on demand, it's kind of lower waste, lower transportation emissions.

  Trena 32:46.48
  So yeah, there's there's still a lot of change happening and I'm sure we'll continue to be but people are reading still.

  Julie 32:51.80 Yeah. Oh, interesting. Well, it'll be exciting, I think, to see where you can take Page Two in the next decade.

  Trena 33:01.90
  Thanks, Julie.

  Julie 33:03.02
  Yeah, thank you so much for coming.

  Trena 33:06.14
  Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. It's authors like you who you know are so generous with us and have really helped us to get where we are.

  Julie 33:16.26
  Good. Well, I'm so glad that we worked together because it was a really great experience.

  Trena 33:22.09
  Thank you.

  Julie 33:23.01
  Thanks for joining me today. Take care.

  Trena 33:25.84
  Take care.

  Julie 33:25.99
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