47. Counting on Curiosity with Jennifer Devine
EPISODE 47
Jennifer Devine shares her journey from controller at a commercial real estate development firm to owner of an accounting and technology solutions business that provides outsourced accounting services to clients.
Catch the Conversation
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Jennifer Devine shares her journey from controller at a commercial real estate development firm to owner of an accounting and technology solutions business that provides outsourced accounting services to clients.
Jennifer Devine is a highly accomplished Certified Public Accountant (CPA) with over 25 years of experience in the accounting and accounting software industry. She founded Devine Consulting in 2011, merging her expertise in accounting with her passion for software. A graduate of the Mays School of Business at Texas A&M University, Jennifer earned a Bachelor of Business Administration in Accounting in 1996 and obtained her CPA license in 2000.
With a diverse background that includes serving as the Controller for a prominent international commercial real estate firm, Jennifer is known for her innovative approach to accounting. Notably, she has leveraged her in-depth understanding of software to streamline multi-currency reporting systems, resulting in significant cost savings for her clients.
Jennifer is dedicated to providing personalized customer service and has been recognized for her contributions with numerous accolades, including the Aggie 100. Her commitment to breaking the typical accountant stereotype and embracing new strategies to deliver added value to her clients is a testament to her entrepreneurial spirit and unwavering dedication to her craft.
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4:12
Buying and Transforming a Business
8:51
Evolving from Bookkeeping to Outsourced Accounting
11:44
Building a Global Team Successfully
18:31
Leadership Growth and Challenges
24:31
Creating Culture and Managing Remote Work
27:22
Future Growth and Business Development
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Julie: 0:04
Welcome to Figure 8, where we feature inspiring stories of women entrepreneurs who have grown their businesses to seven and eight figures revenue. If you're in the mix of growing a bigger business, these stories are for you. Join us as we explore where the tough spots are, how to overcome them and how to prepare yourself for the next portion of the climb. I'm your host, julie Ellis. I'm an author, entrepreneur and a growth and leadership coach who co-founded, grew and exited an eight-figure business. This led me to exploring why some women achieve great things, and that led to my book Big Gorgeous Goals. Let's explore the systems, processes and people that help us grow our businesses to new heights. If you're interested in growing your business, this podcast will help. Now let's get going. Hello and welcome to this episode of Figure 8.
Julie: 1:08
Today, I am joined by Jennifer Devine. Jennifer is working in the field of accounting and she has a business that she purchased in 2011, an accounting and technology solutions business. Before that, she worked as a controller for a commercial real estate development firm and had lots of interesting and diverse experience, and today we're going to dive into all kinds of things about accounting and the things that you need, and how she's grown her own business using teams from abroad as well as teams from locally, and I'm really excited to talk to you today. Thanks, Jennifer, for joining me.
Jennifer: 1:52
Thanks for having me, Julie.
Julie: 1:54
So how did you end up, you know, in the commercial real estate side of accounting?
Jennifer: 2:02
Well, actually it's kind of a funny story. Actually I had been looking for a new position and I always like to tell people this just in general because I was on vacation with my family. But I was looking for a job, I had a recruiter and she had reached out to me on vacation and said oh, I got this great job interview for you. Um, I want you to set it up. It's gonna be this day and this time. And then I didn't hear from her again and then I had the like decision to make do I go show up for this interview that I don't really know, that I for sure have, because she didn't confirm it, or do I not show up to an interview I might have like? So I really grappled with that. So I showed up for an interview I didn't have and, um, I got the job.
Jennifer: 2:57
So there you go. They interviewed me, anyways, and I love it.
Julie: 2:58
So you showed up and they were like, uh, you know, looked through the calendar and were like no yeah, and I said, well, I'm really sorry I couldn't get a hold.
Jennifer: 3:03
The recruiter and I didn't want to not show up for an interview I had, and she's like, that's okay, I'll go ahead and interview.
Julie: 3:10
And then you got the job.
Jennifer: 3:11
I got the job, and so they um, I was the controller for their development. They had in Cabo San Lucas. They were building very beautiful villas up the side of a mountain.
Jennifer: 3:23
That's how I got there.
Julie: 3:26
that's fantastic, um and and kind of interesting, feels kind of like you know they're doing kind of an interesting project and yep, yep, there's a little bit of excitement in that, and so did you stay working for them for a long time
Jennifer: 3:40
Yes, I worked there for I think 11 years in total.
Jennifer: 3:44
They were like a family to me. One of my best friends still works there and I just went to her son's wedding this weekend. So that tells you a lot. But it was really hard to leave there. But you know, I had gotten a little bit bored. I sort of figured it all out, had it really organized and it was just kind of time to do something new. But yeah, I was there a really long time.
Julie: 4:07
Yep, and so how did you get started in what you're doing right now? Did you buy it right away or did you start building up some things on your own first?
Jennifer: 4:17
No, so so that's also very interesting. So we had a software, accounting software called Solomon that we utilized at the company I worked for and we had this girl that came and she consulted on the software. It's all she did and she had not many times it talked to me about working for her and I was just like I asked her, like I have very young kids, I I just can't just jump Right so she could, and she wouldn't offer me like a real solution, like oh, I'd give you so much, x amount of hours a week, or like anything like that. So I was like I can't do that. And then one day she walked in and she said, well, would you be interested in buying my business? And I thought I don't know, maybe because I'm in a position where I could take a risk, at least a calculated risk, right?
Jennifer: 5:04
So all in all, I did end up buying her business and that business was just consulting on that software. And what I realized while I was pursuing that was that I didn't love the aspect of the project Like you didn't necessarily know what was coming next and I only had, you know, 10 to 12 clients and I was just not sure what tomorrow would bring. So at that point I started building up what I would consider more bookkeeping business. My sister came to work for me and she sort of started in that realm and we kind of grew it from there. So really what I bought and what it is today is completely different.
Julie: 5:40
Right yeah, which I think often happens when you buy a business.
Jennifer: 5:45
It's you know, but I bought another company name.
Jennifer: 6:11
And unfortunately she decided to take some of my clients back, and so that was sort of a pivotal moment in business where I said what are we going to do next? So for people out there I mean, yes, we could go after her, yes, I could do those things, but it really wasn't going to advance me further by living in the past of it. So we started working with some other softwares and I just chose a different route.
Julie: 6:30
Yeah, I think that really lands with me because I mean, when we started our business, we had a competitor who came on the market pretty fast after us and, you know, big chunks of our website were just straight up copied over and we, you know, did get her to change that. But it is this piece of like. How much time do you want to spend like fighting something versus figuring out how to really start growing your business and taking it in a new direction, because that there's only so much of you to give right, absolutely when you want to put your energy and where you want to end up.
Jennifer: 7:08
Well, and that was what's so hard right. There's also a software that I knew at the time. That was it's like nobody uses it anymore. Just to give you an example like nobody's buying it. It's maybe some people still have it, but it's very, very rare Like it was going to go away. So it wasn't going to do me a lot of good to focus my effort on that. My effort was better focused on something that was new and innovative.
Julie: 7:31
Yes, yeah, and so that's how you sort of started branching out. You were selling up your softwares and doing other things, and where did things go from there?
Jennifer: 7:41
So we you know, we really actually we went to this conference, my sister and I and she still works with me, you know, we went to this conference for this new software and we literally were like tears in headlights, right, like we're going to implement this. I'm going to have to say, like I am, we are not ready for this. And we ended up meeting some gentlemen that were also at the conference that had a firm that sold software and through that we partnered up, so if we did have an opportunity to sell the software, we would sell it through them, and we still work with them to today. But we became what they call accounting partners and so we took it in a different direction and that sort of really kickstarted us being stopping being just bookkeepers and becoming more outsourced accountants, and it gave us this opportunity to level up our game too. And so you know, it's funny how the things will shape you and turn you in a different direction, but it all has worked out fabulously. I mean, obviously, bumps in the road, that's all I mean.
Julie: 8:46
So obviously, and we can talk about some of those but thinking about, like, when you think about the shift you made from being a bookkeeping firm to being outsourced accounting, what were some of the different things you were doing for clients in in as an outsourced accountant?
Jennifer: 9:04
Well, interestingly enough, I think we were all. We were always providing that level of service, so we just weren't calling it that either. Because I came from a background in this real estate development right where I was providing that service and as I moved forward in my career I thought I'm really doing what I was doing there just for others.
Julie: 9:24
Right, so now you're giving it. So it's more advice giving and more planning as opposed to just so yeah, and it depends.
Jennifer: 9:31
But there's also a little bit more of like. You know, I think people view I and I would describe bookkeepers like they're going to get the transactions and they're going to pay the bills. Things are going to get done. But if you want to use your financials to tell a story about your business or to be able to learn from your business, you need to take it to another level, and a bookkeeper isn't going to necessarily do that for you. You might get lucky. There are, you know, there are some great book keepers. I don't want to, but, like you know, we were going to provide, yes, and we can take it level up and then help you project and stuff like that. But just sometimes, you know, clients need to have an understanding of what really and how they're doing in their business and that's where we are helping to provide for them.
Julie: 10:14
Yeah, which makes a lot of sense, and I think that, like from the side of so you know you're an entrepreneur and also an accountant, but for entrepreneurs who are not accountants, it's one of the most difficult places to find the kind of quality help and advice that people really need when they're growing businesses.
Jennifer: 10:35
Yes, and a lot of times people don't always find value in it. They don't think there's value in it. Right, it's just something they have to get done so they can pay their taxes.
Julie: 10:43
Right, I got to file the forms and pay right in a check, basically yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how have you found the sort of levelling up that's happened, the kind of changes you've had to make as you've grown this business?
Jennifer: 10:59
So I think it's been such an interesting ride. You mentioned earlier in regards to outsourcing some employees overseas and we tried that like a few years ago and I would say we failed pretty miserably. Right it just, it just didn't work. Part of the problem we didn't have like a set person and it's like we went through three people and I'm like we can't keep retraining someone. Right Like that's such a big part of business is like the losing and the coming and going of people per se. Right Like you're always retraining and it's like you just never can get to that next step if you're just keep retraining and retraining. So it's like finding that sweet spot of getting those people who are going to stick with you to help level you up, which is one of my struggles.
Julie: 11:52
And like managing a virtual team across a lot of time zones is definitely challenging.
Jennifer: 11:56
Well, what's really worked for us from that perspective is they work on our time zone, so it's nighttime for them, them, but they work during our hours, so they're still like. We brought them in as part of the team together. So we try to. You know, we have a. One thing that's worked really well for us is we have a daily meeting. We all get together and we all have a conversation once a day, and, you know, because we want them to feel like part of the team, like even though they're remote, and it helps that we have four of them there and not just one.
Julie: 12:27
Yes, and so the first time you did this, it did not work out very well. What do you feel like is different this time? Because now you have four people on your team that are working overseas.
Jennifer: 12:37
Well, one, I think the company we worked with. They had a developed plan and how you go about it. I had been in an organization with a bunch of other accountants who had used this company before, and you know some of them had been successful with it. But I learned from their mistakes other people's mistakes who maybe hadn't been successful. So I listened to all of those things and we went into it in a specific direction and how we were going to go about it, and I think that helped.
Jennifer: 13:03
We were more prepared and we really knew we wanted to at least have two of them, so that they had each other, and so we didn't get two. At first we did get one person, but she's still with us and she's been working out fabulously and gotten promoted, and so we were then able to add another one in, and so that's been great, and they are there and we have flown over and seen them. So I think that's important too is really getting to know them, and just from going to see them has really leveled them up too. They seem less hesitant to ask the questions.
Julie: 13:41
Well, and it is one of the things, though, right about, like the accounting industry as a whole, is that there's a certain amount of I don't know if commoditization is the right word, but, like back to your kind of comments about not everybody sees value in it, they see it as a function. They need to file their paperwork and that sort of thing, and so, like getting the right price for value and and having the right team to be able to deliver, that is definitely got to be a challenge.
Jennifer: 14:10
Well it is, and the hard part is is like what people want to pay us about. All my employees worked here Like we, just we wouldn't find them like there. It's hard, that's a difficult place to be.
Julie: 14:22
Yeah, and so now, how do you feel like you have evolved as a leader over the? So it was 2011 that you bought that business, and here we are. You're kind of 15 years, almost, almost, are we. You know? We're getting so close, so tell me about what that's been like for you as the leader.
Jennifer: 14:42
Well, you know, from the beginning, in the beginning, I was doing all the work right Like, or even with my sister here she's a leader and the one employee.
Jennifer: 14:51
And then I added my sister right and you know, like she's still with me today, but like I was still doing a lot of the work, like I was really in the depths of it, and so it was this really hard balance of how do I get out there and find more clients but still get all of the work done, and you can't stop doing marketing and networking and doing those things to get the work done. So it was a constant juggle right and over time that has lessened because I've been able to put myself in a place where most of the time I don't have to do the client work and I'm able to really work on the business and do work. You know focus on marketing or sales or things that help the business, or you know employee training or other things that are important for them and not just work focused on help. You know working on the clients and I think that's really important as you grow.
Julie: 15:48
Yeah, and what was it like? I mean, you hired your sister, but then how did you start really really extracting yourself?
Jennifer: 15:57
You know, if I'm being honest with you, I don't even know how it happened. I just knew it needed to happen. I think you know I I hired, so she works with me and she's done a lot of work and she's had a lot of growth as well. But then at one point I did hire an accounting director and that really helped me at least ease out of some of it. You know, unfortunately I'm in a position right now where I've had to jump back in in some ways, but I'm not a full-time client person right Even now, so that still helps.
Julie: 16:28
Yes, well, and I mean, I think that is the thing about entrepreneurship is the buck is stopping on your desk and ultimately, you know if it, if things are, if you're struggling because you have some turnover, then it can end up back with you. Yes, and that's the part now that I'm working on how does yeah, Well, that's where you're like I am not the right person for this.
Jennifer: 16:53
It's really funny, like well, I mean, it's funny. I think you know I've been talking to some people like there's this, this aspect of my job that I'm not proficient in right. Like there's a marketing aspect where I have typically people who help me with social and do all those things I'm not proficient but I'm super proficient with accounting so I can jump in and it comes really naturally to me. So if I have to do something, I'd rather do that.
Julie: 17:17
Yes, but it is that it leaves you, though, as an entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur, feeling a bit vulnerable, right, because there are functions that you need to have that you cannot fill in for.
Jennifer: 17:31
That's, yes, very, very true. Like I'm just not good at it. I'm not a creative person. I mean, I can be creative from an accounting aspect, but I'm not a creative in, like, designing something that looks pretty. Or I'm bad with words, I'm great with numbers. Like, if I have to write something, it's going to take me forever to write it.
Julie: 17:53
Yeah, definitely, definitely Well, and that's the I mean. I think, though, you've used your creativity to look at circumstances to build your business, like all the different ways that the creativity has played right.
Jennifer: 18:10
Yes, there's that. There's different types of creativity. I would say right, and I'm good in some respects. I have great ideas At least I think I do. But I have all these ideas, but I'm really good with having someone who helps me really push those out there and get them implemented. I can come up with them, but am I necessarily the best person to put them out in the world?
Julie: 18:32
Yeah, and how do you build like the? You know, bring the ideas and figure out which ones you should implement and which ones to kind of leave behind Right. Figure out which ones you should implement and which ones to kind of leave behind Right, yeah, yeah. And so what is what's kind of next? Are you you've kind of stabilized now right? I mean trying to mitigate turnover we talked about. That's obviously a big challenge and one that never ends Right. And it's also hard because I think as a small business, you know, you can't really necessarily offer somebody like lifetime career path kind of jobs.
Jennifer: 19:12
Well, no, interesting. I always tell people here though it's like if this job is kind of what you make of it and you can help with like, you don't have to sell to help with growth you can help with by with growth by providing a really good service to the clients that we do have and like and leveling up and being curious Like that's my new term for this year is like being curious, ask questions, try new things, like, I mean, chat. Gpt still is relatively new and people have dabbled in it, but you know, the other day I was trying to train myself. What else can we use it for? I hear these things people are doing and we got to figure something out. We have to stay up to date.
Julie: 19:50
Well, and with AI, like the thing that I think with that is, we all need to figure out how we're going to use it, because if we just say, well, I'm just going to wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it's moving so fast that it'll just leapfrog right over us
Jennifer: 20:04
Absolutely. You know we don't, we don't have to be the first to do everything, but we certainly don't want to be the last.
Julie: 20:09
e, and even I mean I've heard people talking about using ai for bookkeeping, which is kind of interesting because obviously you you will still need human intervention for things like you talk about, like interpretation.
Julie: 20:26
Interpretation of things and how you work with the rules to present things Like those kinds of things are probably human critical thinking things, but those transactions that are just happening, like that's a really interesting idea.
Jennifer: 20:46
And those are already, I mean, a little inherent in a lot of the accounting systems already, where you can set things up and they will just flow and happen. It's not quite there yet in that respect, you know, because it gets it wrong lots of times, but even though we do, we have to adapt, and being an accountant is a lot less of debits and credits, as it used to be, and a lot more on understanding the technology and how it works.
Julie: 21:08
Yes, well, and yeah, and I guess that's something for like what should you know an entrepreneur who wants to hire somebody like you, a company like yours? Like what is it that they should look for?
Jennifer: 21:24
Well, they really should. I mean, I tell this to my clients like we want to be part of your team. It's not like, yes, we're outsourced, but that doesn't mean we. You shouldn't think of us when you have a question about something or need something additional. Right, you know it's hard, it's a hard space sometimes because we're providing a specific service for what you're paying for, but that doesn't mean we can't add on to that or help you with something additional when it comes along. You know, but if somebody's just your bookkeeper or they don't pick up the phone when you call them, like those are, those are sure signs that it's not really working?
Julie: 22:11
Yeah, you want the team that you're building um. Are you fully remote or do you have an office?
Jennifer: 22:19
So we yeah, we do have an office, um, we're, we're one day at home right now, you know, and I've dabbled in, what do we do next, cause our lease is coming up Um, and what makes the most sense. It's interesting Cause I can. I can see both sides of everything, but I also watch and see how people learn, and I do think being around others and overhearing things does play into learning, and I hope that people will recognize that, because it's really hard. People are going to be a lot more hesitant to message you or ask you a question over the computer. Now, they're not saying that everybody will or they will, but it has to have more intention. I can't just overhear somebody talking which I do and go oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not no, no, no. Let me tell you how to do that. Like so I can't, I can't, even I can't. I don't have the opportunity to correct a mistake before it happens, because I just hear something.
Julie: 23:19
But yeah, or or I think also the idea, like I do think in accounting especially like how will people understand how to think beyond a contained set of rules if they never actually have any coaching or see, anybody doing that.
Jennifer: 23:38
yeah, it's, and it's hard like so. I think with more remote, it has to be more intense. You have to have a systematic way to see if people are getting things done. And it's harder, it's harder, I think it's harder to manage.
Julie: 23:54
Oh, yes, no question, it's harder to manage.
Julie: 23:59
Yeah, yeah, yes, but it is interesting because I've had another somebody I know talk to me about accountants who are going into audit practices and how, you know, with the pandemic they stopped having kind of the audit room mentality where everybody would gather and that they found that their young accountants were not learning as much.
Jennifer: 24:22
I think that's very, very true. And then also you add on to the fact that people are changing jobs more frequently than they used to. I don't think they're really developing that base level of knowledge that we got the opportunity to do when we were younger. Like, I just think it's hard.
Julie: 24:38
Yeah, yeah, it's a different, just a different job market and a different world. In that way, I think yeah, agreed, yeah, and so what kind of culture are you trying to build in terms of how you're, how you're bringing young people up and like education and trying to hang on to and give them opportunities, the people that you know?
Jennifer: 25:02
We are trying to build a culture here.
Jennifer: 25:04
You know we are small, so you know it feels more like a family. You know I want people to feel like they're at home here, that it's not just a job they enjoy, like you hate going to your job, right, who wants to go? But you know they can, that they enjoy it. But then you know, I am really focused on how do we train people, because you can tell people to watch videos all day, but that doesn't really train them on how to actually do different things. So once a month we have a monthly meeting and I do some form of a training exercise in that meeting for them, just more focused on things we do and how we do it too, so that they can kind of learn that aspect of it. Also, you know, like including people on meetings that they may not have had opportunities to be part of, just even if it's like you don't have to say anything, just listen, so you can learn from being on those meetings with clients all the different ways of bringing people along.
Jennifer: 26:01
Yes, yes, and also, like you know, it's a skill to learn how to deal with different types of people. People have different personalities and you know, you know something I always tell people when you come here it's a skill to learn how to deal with different types of people. People have different personalities and you know, you know something I always tell people when you come here it's like everybody communicates in different ways, right? Like some people love to be texted, some people hate it, some people like emails, some people like phone calls. It's like how are you going to work with this particular client to get the information you need If you solely rely on emails to get the information you need.
Julie: 26:33
If you solely rely on emails, you may never get it. And so, yeah, it's that piece of meeting people where they are at, in terms of how they can learn Yep, yep, yep. And so what will be next for you with your business?
Jennifer: 26:47
Well, for me and the part that I want to do, I'm really trying to, you know, get out there more, be a thought leader, speak at some conferences, but that also with the intent that that can also help grow the business because you make more connections. You know we can help people. You know we do a lot of construction companies. How do we, how do we get out there and be in front of them and help them with their growth? People come to me. Well, you're going to give me project reporting. Of course I can, but you need to understand how to use the system because you're going to get more value out of logging in and getting that information than me sending you a report.
Julie: 27:21
Yes, well, and it is interesting, we live in this age of an endless amount of data is at our fingertips, and so how do we figure out what we really need to help us, you know, see the numbers, make the decisions move forward, those kind of pieces. Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how much of what you do when you bring clients on is sort of educating them as well. I mean, that's one example right, teaching them how to log in and pull the information themselves.
Jennifer: 27:53
Absolutely. And then, but also, what we can we bring to the table is like here's the processes, the way we we figured out the best way to do them Right, so educating them on how to get through those processes, because so so much of the time they're just kind of getting it done Like there's like I've heard this term a lot Like they're like the ducks on the hopper, they're like calm, but underneath they're just kind of their feet are just a moving right. So there's just like they're and they're putting out fires and instead of like this is how we need to go about the process in a systematic way, and if you do your part and I do my part, it runs so seamless.
Julie: 28:28
Yeah, and that ultimately it will help them make better decisions, make faster decisions, be able to really see what's happening.
Jennifer: 28:35
Well and keep the calm. I mean, I think it's very interesting and I've, you know, told some people. This is like when I say there's noise, it's sometimes not true noise, it's just a lot of commotion of things going on that maybe doesn't need to be there. And if you put in a process or you put in certain things or the right people in the right places, the noise level drops and the commotion ceases and you can just kind of move through your business and how you need to do it without having this habit coming going on Right.
Julie: 29:11
Right, and is that you? Do you see that a lot?
Jennifer: 29:14
Well, I've seen it in my own business. To be honest with you. You know we're down people right now and it's quieter. It's just.
Jennifer: 29:22
Things are just kind of working and it seemed like we were short people before, right working and it seemed like we were short people before
Julie: 29:32
Right and where you are actually short people and you can see things coming together and working.
Jennifer: 29:35
Exactly, exactly, and it's so you and myself included you need to be able to hone in what's really causing that. You know, and I didn't even realize that that was happening, and so it's like how do you hone into what that real thing behind it is so you can fix that? Yeah Well.
Julie: 29:58
I think too, like it's also when you're kind of like on those growth edges where you know the way you did things before is not working anymore and you need to like like simplify or automate or, you know, communicate differently, like all of those kind of hallmark pieces.
Jennifer: 30:18
Well, and I feel like you know, for me it was like I didn't really dig into trying to figure out, maybe, what the real problem was. I was just kind of letting other people try to handle it. And when I actually had to get in there and see what was going on, my eyes were opened and I wish I had kind of figured that out earlier so I could have fixed some of the problems. That maybe prevented some turnover. So I learned from that too. I think we're always learning. Nobody's perfect.
Julie: 30:47
Oh, no One thing about growing any kind of business. Running a business is there's always learning opportunities.
Jennifer: 30:54
Well, and it means, like I tell my kids you know, you don't succeed until you fail.
Jennifer: 30:57
It's true. Sometimes you have to fail to learn.
Julie: 31:00
And sometimes you have to stumble in order for you to like be able to, you know, get back to running again.
Jennifer: 31:07
So for sure.
Julie: 31:09
No, it makes a lot of sense. Well, I'll be very interested to see where you go. This has been a great conversation, and I think it's great because I do think people are afraid of financials, and so it's nice to see somebody who views it as a real partnership. Yes, I do. Perfect.
Jennifer: 31:27
Thank you so much for having me.
Julie: 31:29
Thanks, Jennifer, take care.
Julie: 31:32
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