53. Breaking In and Setting Yourself Up to Win with Kathy Vurinaris
EPISODE 53
In this second episode of my three-part podcast series we continue the conversation with Kathy Vurinaris, and dive into what it really takes to succeed in retail.
Kathy brings decades of retail expertise to this discussion as we explore the strategies, systems, and mindset shifts that can help entrepreneurs build strong retail partnerships and create sustainable growth.
Catch the Conversation
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Kathy is a seasoned retail product development executive behind some of Canada's most iconic brands, including Joe Fresh, Club Monaco, and Roots, with experience at major retailers like Sephora and Loblaws.
Inspired by her 88-year-old mother's passion and wisdom, Kathy took on the challenge to confront a societal taboo, and created Sleaks. Scientifically researched, patent-pending washable leakproof underwear that looks and feels like normal underwear. Discreet, affordable, and eco-friendly, Sleaks empowers individuals to live freely while reducing environmental waste.
Kathy's mission is rooted in responsible consumption, environmental stewardship, and helping people live their best lives.
You can connect with Kathy on LinkedIn.
Find out more about Sleaks on their website.
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0:00
Introduction: Setting Yourself Up to Win in Retail
6:59
The Power of Brand Recognition
20:15
Forecasting Demand and Managing Inventory Risk
30:59
Scaling Retail Operations Successfully
39:37
Final Takeaway: Know Your Numbers Before You Scale
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Welcome to this special three-part series of the Big Gorgeous Goals podcast, focused on one of the biggest decisions many product-based entrepreneurs face: Should you go into retail?
I'm Julie Ellis, leadership coach, speaker, author of Big Gorgeous Goals, and co-founder of Mabel's Labels, a business we scaled from a small basement startup into major retail channels across North America.
Over the years, I've learned something important about retail. From the outside, it looks like a huge milestone for any brand. The shelf placement, the purchase orders, the visibility, the scale. But behind every product on a shelf is an incredibly complex system of operations, forecasting, margins, logistics, inventory management, manufacturing decisions, retailer expectations, and financial pressure that many of us don't see until we are in it.
That's exactly why I wanted to create this series. Not to convince you that retail is the right path, and not to scare you away from it either, but to help you make informed, strategic decisions about whether retail fits your business, your goals, your margins, your operations, and the kind of company you actually want to build.
Throughout the series, I'm joined by Kathy Vurinaris, an entrepreneur who is currently building her own product-based business, who is also bringing years of experience from the retailer and consumer packaged goods world. Together, we unpack how to know if you're retail ready, what buyers actually care about, the hidden costs and operational realities of retail, and what it really takes to scale and succeed once you get there. Because growth alone is not the goal. Sustainable growth is. And sometimes the best entrepreneurial decisions are not about moving faster. They're about understanding the path clearly before you take the next step. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.
When entrepreneurs think about retail, they often imagine the breakthrough moment, the big meeting, the purchase order, seeing their product on shelves for the first time. And while all of that is absolutely exciting, what a lot of us don't realize is that getting the yes is actually the beginning of a very long path.
Welcome back to episode two of this special three-part series on retail strategy for product-based businesses. I'm Julie Ellis, and today I am joined again by entrepreneur and retail expert Kathy Vurinaris for a conversation about what it really takes to break into retail, and more importantly, how to set yourself up to actually succeed once you get there.
Because retail has a way of looking deceptively simple from the outside. You make a product, a retailer agrees to carry it, customers buy it, success. But underneath that simple picture is an incredibly complicated ecosystem of margins, logistics, inventory, forecasting, packaging requirements, pricing strategy, sell-through targets, cash flow pressure, retailer expectations, and operational systems that most of us never fully see until we're in it That's where so many businesses get caught off guard.
In this episode, Kathy and I unpack the hidden math about retail. We talk about why retailers care so deeply about squares, sales per square foot or even per square inch, why your margins might need to be far bigger than you think, and how listing fees, flyer costs, returns, discounts, and pro- promotional expectations slowly eat away at your profitability. And we look also at why cash flow and not just revenue becomes one of the biggest pressures as your business scales up.
We'll also get into some of the operational realities that we would like to make sure that everyone's aware of, things like shelf-ready packaging and inventory assumptions, size of product and SKU complexity, bar coding systems, compliance requirements, and the big challenge of forecasting what customers are actually going to buy once your product is on a shelf.
Honestly, one of the most important themes in the conversation is this: retail doesn't validate your business. A retail listing is not the finish line, and most stores, more stores, it doesn't automatically mean more success. Sometimes the smartest move is not scaling into retail immediately, but building brand awareness and customer loyalty, the strength for your operational team, and direct-to-consumer momentum first.
What I loved about this conversation is we went beyond theory. Kathy brings the perspective of someone who has worked on the retailer and CPG side for years, while now building her own product-based business, Sleaks. Together, we had a very candid conversation about the tension between growth opportunity and operational risk. If you go in too early, without the right margins, without enough capital, without operational readiness, or without a strong brand, retail can expose every single weakness in your business pretty fast.
I think that's why this conversation matters a lot for founders, and I don't want to scare people away from retail. I want to help entrepreneurs make smarter and more informed decisions before they make that leap. So whether retail forms part of your long-term vision, or whether you're just right now kinda curious about how this world actually works behind the scenes, I think you're going to get a lot from today's discussion. So let's jump in.
Welcome back for e- episode two with Kathy Vurinaris, and we are talking today about breaking into retail and how you set yourself up to win. In the previous episode, we chatted about should you go to retail and are you ready? We're talking about breaking in and setting yourself up to win. And so you're ready. I mean, how do you know ...
We talked a little bit about this last time, but let's just recap the sort of you've made the choice with your startup, Sleaks, not to go to retail right now, and just recap for me why that is? A couple of things, but the number one is, we don't have enough brand recognition. I would say number two is that we have the margins, we've got the foundation, all of those things, but it's also cash flow, right? The, the expense of the investment of inventory. Yes. Which is huge. And to have it go ... Yeah, it's huge. And, and in some ways it's, the curse of the more successful you are, the more that capital requirement grows. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. With any product-based business, whether you're direct to consumer or retail.
When you think about, the playbook of going in, what do buyers actually care about? They care... from the perspective and for where, from where I sat before- it was always based on sales per square foot. Yeah. Right? That is their number one KPI. So you need to understand, and, and that's like, it's in a monthly, and then it's measured monthly and annually, because a lot of large retailers only change their assortments once a year. Yes. If you're lucky, they change it twice a year. Right. Right? Yeah. And so, so that, that's really, really good to know as well, right? So if they're, what they're measuring your success as a brand and a product on is monthly sales adding up to annual sales. And that makes sense.
I think even where we were in stationary, they talked even about, sales per square inch. Right. Because, you know, you're into like a lot of- Yeah, that's it. Yeah ... little, tiny, bitty things. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You can have hundreds of products in that four-foot section. In a square foot.
And what do you think as small brands who- as we said, should establish themselves, but when they go to pitch, what is it that a big retailer, what, what is it they'd be swayed by from a small brand? What appeals about bringing a small brand in? Um, well, a lot of small brands, a lot of digital brands have really strong followings, like almost like, you know, they're TikTok famous or they're Instagram famous. Because I, I think that that's one of the first thing buy- buyers look at when they look at a new brand. I think that that's really important. And that's why for me, I'm looking to scale my digital business- become known ... for that reason. Become the name. To become known.
I can say- when we were pitching Mabel's Labels to retailers, we were pitching the story of, four moms in a basement, celebrity following, social media sensation. We had the following. We had all of those components. Yeah. That was part of what we were pitching to people, for sure. And I think that that's critical right now.
One of the things we talked about in the last episode was that eight to 10 times cost for retail price. Yes. And what are the other math things? Like to a lot of people, I think that would seem like excessively large amount of room, right, between the retail price and the cost.
What are the other things that come into play? What other things do you pay for? I mean, I think of some things we pay for- Listing fees. Listing fees is a big one. Flyer. Need to be in a flyer. Discounts. Returns. And returns is often an assumed percentage. Yes. The other thing too, I think, is if you have an end cap or any kind of special display- you paid for that. Absolutely. The retailer does not pay for that.
The other thing too is a lot of the large retailers are not corporate, they're franchise. So there's two fees. The corporate, the head office wants to make a percentage, and then the actual franchisee needs to make generally a percentage ... so do you know what keystone is? So- keystone is when something is doubled. If something retails for $10, the retailer wants to make five. But in a franchise situation, like a lot of drugstores are franchises, where the pharmacist owns the franchise, but it's run by a big corporation. So, the head office wants to make 20 points. So that 20 points is off of retail, off of wholesale. Yeah. So that's where then you're looking at a 70%. Correct. You know, you're getting 30. Absolutely. Out of that $10, you get three and they're going to get seven. So that's where your product needed to cost you a dollar, right? It is also, I think, one of those things that it , in all of those, like a quarter percent here and a half a percent for that, and one and seven five for that, and you don't actually realize what the big picture is as it all dilutes down in through your P&L to your bottom line- did you make any money doing this? Those are fixed costs in those situations. You have zero control over them.
Do you have to do the flyer? Do you have to pay that extra money? No. Right. Do you need to pay the listing fee? Well, yes, if you want in, unless you can become a brand that is desirable and- I mean, there's, there are other paths too. And that, and that's where I want to get to- Yeah ... hopefully. Yeah.
For Mabel's Labels, it wouldn't make sense for you not to be in the back to school you know, flyer. Right? Exactly. Yes. And for me, it wouldn't make sense for me not to be in the incontinence flyer. Of course. Right? So if they're doing a, you know, whole thing on Depends and Always and Poise- wouldn't make sense for me not to be in that.
For me, the issue is that because those are big brands, they up charge those kinds of flyer placement. Yeah. So in back to school, there would probably be quite a few smaller brands that are not, that are fun and really fill a niche and whatever. But in the space that I'm in, it's even, so just SEO words have a charge based on the kind of competition that uses the same word. My SEO is four times average. The one difference with children's products is, it's, it's fun, it's playful, and it can evolve.
Whereas when you have a more constrained, you know- It's a commodity ... guardrails on your category, your costs look a little different. Yes, it's a commodity. So incontinence underwear is a commodity. SEO is four times average.
I would think that it's the kind of commodity where they want to get people's dollars for it because it means they need to come; every month and buy the product, right? So there's a loyalty, return footfall kind of equation that they're going to look for.
There are costs that I didn't realize until I started doing this. And then thinking about shelf-ready packaging. Thinking about, things I'd never thought about. Inners and masters. How many, how many things are in the little box, which is the inner, that goes in the big box, which is the master. And how do you: is the inner shippable? Yes. Is it shippable, right? Yep. Because it has to be shippable. They need to be able to easily break up the master in the warehouse so that the inner can be shipped to individual stores. Because you send your big boxes to a warehouse owned by the retailer, where they break them out and ship them into stores.
And that's sometimes- I think about, as somebody who's sold something quite small, you place an order online and it comes in the great big box, and the thing inside the box is like, you know- two inches by two inches, and they're doing that because they don't want it to get lost. And you have to be careful about that as well with your- configuration of inners and masters.
And for me, uh, I'm sized. So my initial packaging is an assorted pack. And my supplementary packaging would be solid color, solid size, right? So would it be a two-pack? Would it be a three-pack for replenishment? Yeah ... it's a lot of math based on sell-through and turnover.
You know, there's a lot that goes into it. And my assumptions for my master case, which is an assorted pack, are based on my knowledge of my history of selling underwear. But it's interesting because what we've learned is that it's changed. Yeah. We're selling double XL and XL more than we're selling mediums and larges. Small and extra small. We actually stopped selling extra small already. I need to manage my inventory, and I need to manage my costs. So I've eliminated extra small.
That is the tricky part about bringing a brand like yours. We all have tricky parts with our brands, our businesses. Nobody's got it easy. Your tricky part is when you list in retail, you probably need the five-size spread, right? You need the extra-small to extra-large. We now have to do double XL, yeah. So there's six sizes, which immediately means are you selling singles, multiples, you know, and then start multiplying basically. And two colors. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So the cash register in my head is going- ... ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching, right? For you to enter a retailer that has 100 stores- it's a lot of inventory. It is. It really, really is. And a lot of things to track in terms of, we talked a little bit in the last episode about the 60% turnover. So out of 10 things that go on the shelf, we want six of them to sell in 90 days. We're talking about times 18 products that you're going to put on the shelf. YAnd you have to get it right, right? Yeah. You don't have a lot of time to fix it. No, you don't. It's so interesting.
The other thing you also have to have: based on a forecast of that sell-through of 60% in 90 days, you must have 60 days of inventory in your warehouse at your own expense. So you are also making assumptions as to what's going to sell, and the velocity of each SKU. So, you're almost doubling your investment of inventory. And then what if certain sizes or colors aren't selling, and then you've got an overabundance of inventory? Mm-hmm. It's a lot, right? Yeah. It is a lot. And it's a big risk. So this is why also when you do direct to consumer, you learn a lot. You know what your best-selling sizes are, what your best-selling colors are. Are your colors seasonal? Is there a peak and valley to your business? When does a repeat sale happen with the same customer?
So, we launched in November, and we already have customers who have bought four times. That's a very good sign. Yes, I'm going to buy a one pair because I want to see. I've tried it all, and I know things don't really work, and then they're coming back because they love the product. Our best customer has bought 10 pairs in four months, because they're her everyday underwear now.
It's those kinds of things that you don't learn at retail. You can learn a lot of things about-you can get baskets. You can see what people are buying with your product. You can learn about how you could position yourself. I mean, there are a lot of things and a lot of data that you can extract from retail as well. But it is different. And it's different kinds of analysis and different kinds of skills. Well, basket size, all of those things as well.
In direct-to-consumer, we offer a bundle. It's one of each plus an extra set of pads. You get the pads for free. That's not something we're going to be able to offer in retail-unless we bundle it together. I don't think someone's going to want to do that. Our retailer's not going to want to do that. And that's our best-selling item.
Let's talk about pricing for a second. So brands that go into retail and sell the same product on their own website, and what the strategy is about pricing because- inevitably the retailer will do things to your price, like reduce it. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. And suddenly it's 9.95, not 10.95, right? I've experienced that. You never want to undercut a retailer with the price on your own website. No. At least you want to say, "We're having a sale," "do you want to have a sale?"
What does pricing strategy look like in your mind? I would say that you would have to reflect probably what the retailer is doing. Because you're going to lose customers, you're going to lose traction on your direct-to-consumer site if you don't, unless you offer some sort of incentive. I think there's ways around that, you can offer things like a gift with purchase that they, they're not getting at retail. Or there has to be an added value for your direct-to-consumer business- And that's through customer service and, benefits that they're not going to get at a retailer.
We always kept our price a little bit above the MSRP, the suggested- Yes ... retail price, so that we could say, "We've got velocity on it at a higher price." That's a really smart idea, actually. It really worked for us, But it is hard, right? Yeah, really hard. And thinking about pricing integrity, like you think it's on your website, and so you're going to have a Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale, but you don't think about the retailer, and you don't want to annoy them or make them angry at you. And that can happen. So that's why the offer, and that's why the offer has to be different, right? Like, that's where you have to add, like there has to be an added value. For us, what we're thinking of doing is things like a wash bag for free. All the things, the things that make it attractive to buy directly from you Correct. You know, we're, we're developing a soap right now. Cool. Yeah. Just things like that, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That we could put in for free that's, you know, low cost to us. Yeah. Or not expensive. Yeah. It's a little bit of an add-on so that- Yeah ... when we do get to those periods of crunch when the, you know, a retailer decides to mark it down, we can throw it in as a bone. Yeah. Okay, so if somebody has gone through the process and decided they're retail ready, they've got their- Yeah ... brand strength, they've got the operational strength, and they're going to make the go, they have the financial numbers to do it.
What does it actually look like to scale a retail business? That's a good question. Well, here, I have some thoughts, so I'll share those and then you can add yours. I think it involves a product roadmap- Yeah ... where, you're starting here, and next year you're going to bring newness and freshness- and expand your line with the retailer. I think it also involves building the capability in your team to, to handle various, many, many retailers. And how you do that. You know, my learning was, you think you've learned one major retailer's system, and then you get another one, and their system is entirely different. It's a constant, one of the kinds of things is, like even just a barcode.
I started with GS1 compliant barcodes because they're global standard barcodes. If you buy a cheap barcode and it's not compliant to multiple retailers, it's like a data nightmare. It's like an inventory tracking nightmare. Yeah. So that just is one little thing that you don't even know you have to think about. Well, and that's a great point because that's, like at the very beginning of your business you decided that- Yes ... even though you're not courting retailers right now.
The other, one I see a lot of times is, labeling requirements and language requirements for labeling. Absolutely. And packaging requirements, like labeling on your packaging. Yeah. And so I, because we have to be compliant to Health Canada, So you've got- It is- Yeah ... major, major. Yeah. Any claim that we make has to be tested and validated in a third party lab. Our claims can only be, like a certain size on the packaging. Any, English, French, you know. And that changes on a regular basis. Like, Health Canada can pull our product from a shelf If they find one thing that's not compliant. But if they change, like if we have proof that they've changed, the compliance and we, our packaging was created prior to that we can grandfather in our old packaging until we run out. And then we have to meet with future packaging. Yeah. So it's just, so, those type of things, you know, are for me, pretty standard. Yes. I understand, but a lot of people get caught up on that. Yeah. Well, and it is hard, too, even at its simplest form, how do you actually generate the barcode? It takes a special software to actually even generate the barcode.
And it is quite fascinating technology because, you know, we've talked about how you package things with the inner and the master. Those barcodes are related. Yeah. And the product barcode- They are ... is also related. And so it's also, like it is an organizing system, that is helpful And GS1 actually is you can track it to your factory, where you can track your product all the way through its life cycle. That's why I invested in it because we're not there yet, but I don't want to have to go back and redo it later. If you ever had anything you were going to recall or anything like that, like if you ever get into those kinds of situations, I'm ready for it.
What are the big pitfalls to watch about in this phase, do you think, as somebody gets a toehold in retail and starts establishing themselves? Well, I also think you need to understand the different kinds of channels in retail as well. . Because what we're talking about is really big retailers, right? Yes. I would say that in a lot of cases you might want to start with smaller, sort of independent or small chains or whatever. Test whether you're retail ready or not. Test the processes. Understand the logistics, the back-end piece. Once you're in, there's no going back. It's hard. I would suggest the kind of thing that you could do, there's lots of smaller stores that you could go into, right? I think that for me there's independent drug stores. You know, you go to a small town, and a drug store is like the department store of the small town. Yes. That pharmacist knows everybody who goes into the store, knows them by name, knows exactly what their issues are, and knows what to sell them. It's true. That would be, to me, where I would rather start in retail- Yes before I go to the big guys.
I often saw, in the children's product space, a lot of people would start with Whole Foods. Because you could not sell to Whole Foods as a blanket and get into all their stores. You basically would get, like, one regional person to buy into you, and that was, like, 20 or 30 stores, and you could get your toehold, get in. If you were successful, they'd refer you to the next region, and the next, and eventually maybe you'd get to being national. But it was a good toehold for people who had, green products in the children's space.
When I think back to my first retail experience, I had a buyer who believed in us, and who- knew how hard it was going to be to get us working the way we needed to. And I didn't know that when we went in. And it was very hard. It was hard for us to figure out, we didn't have the money to send people into stores to check our displays, some of the big companies, like if you go to a Unilever or one of those really big companies, they have another company they hire with a team that goes, and those people- Yeah ... go in the back room, they bring the product out. Yeah. They set it up properly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we did not have money for that. You're relying on store staff to execute for you and that's always difficult. Always difficult. I remember sending my dad into a store to check something for me, and, he came back and said, "No, it's not there." And so we'd call the store, get to the department manager, they'd say it's out. My dad would go back. Finally, he sent me a text that's like, "They're lying to you. It's not there." And like this was one store out of, hundreds of stores we were trying to check. That is a definite challenge. There's a great, company called Field Agent where moms are shopping, and they sign up for it, and they check for you. We found- ways, but it takes- Amazing ... that ingenuity, right? Right. Absolutely. I mean, there's lots of companies that do it. I know I've heard of Mosaic, but Mosaic works more in sort of fashion and accessories. So they go in and they check a section, because they have lots of customers in that section. They look at you and every, all your competition. Yeah. Which is good, actually. So they report back if they see something. They're kind of your eyes in the store. And when you can't afford eyes in the store, that's where you have to get very creative. It is kind of an interesting way for these small brands, like interesting and complex challenge to figure out how to navigate some of this stuff.
I think we've covered off like the myth-busting of getting in is the hardest part. More stores does not necessarily equal more success. Correct. And that retail validates your brand. I think we do sort of think we'll make it when we, when we get into retail stores, and that's not really always the case. I think there's a lot we can do to build really strong businesses. But I also recognize that, in some categories, in some ways, when you build your brand to a certain level, you need to go to retail. That's absolutely ... the way it works. And, as much as we said, how are you going to be found on the shelf if you're skincare. If you are makeup and skincare, there are places that people do expect to find you eventually.
And I think my category is one of those categories as well, and I think because it's a convenience thing. I think people- If you need another pair, you do not want to wait a week while they get shipped to you. And I also think that just because they're used to being, going to the drugstore previously to buy the products they were using as a solution, they're going to eventually look to the drugstore for us as well.
As we come to a close on this one and, move on to the next topic, which is how to scale and win, tell me where you think Amazon fits in between retail and direct to consumer. That's a very interesting question, and I think that it depends on the category of product and the product itself. I do think that everybody looks to Amazon now. Even my mother scrolls Amazon. I think it's entertainment for a lot of people. They just, they're bored. They're like, "Eh," you know, like, "Let me just see what's available on Amazon." For me, there's a lot of risk in Amazon, because I have a patented product. And the risk for me is that Amazon itself will copy the product and put it in their Basics or whatever, which is a really high risk. So I'm really not going onto Amazon. The other thing too is Amazon's really expensive. People don't realize how expensive Amazon is. Especially if you're Prime.
Again, we're coming back to math, right? That's right. Yes. You've got to have good math on all fronts. Because it is really that tool you need for decision-making about how you're going to do it. And what retail you're going to go out at, right? It's the integrity of your price again. It is also, a category thing, because I can tell you as an author- Amazon is the largest book seller in the world, and if you don't put your book on Amazon, you are losing out as an author in that space. So like everything, it's a category thing, right? And like everything- it’s a decision. It's a decision as you go. It really is. But they feel like, I know they're a big retailer, but they're also... They sit somewhere in between pure big retail, and pure direct to consumer. So I think they're interesting, and they require expertise of their own. And from what you just said, that kind of in between, how they're in between. The cost of being on Amazon is more like being in a big retailer. Yeah. And I don't think that early-stage entrepreneurs realize that.
If you're losing pennies a sale and you think, "Oh, I'm just losing a few cents," like, no, because the more you sell, the greater that loss is. Correct ... and putting your price up and making more money: yes, it can be done, but it's very difficult. Very difficult to do. And that's why when you start your business and you launch a product, you need to know every single channel that you plan to go into, and the cost of what that is, because it's really hard to raise a price. It's always easy to lower one.
I think we're going to wrap this one up here, but I think there's some more, conversation to have about what happens as you scale up in retail, and what happens to your pricing. So, we'll carry that forward to the next discussion.
Thanks so much for joining me in this special series on retail strategy for product-based businesses. I hope these conversations gave you a more honest, practical, and strategic look at what it really takes to grow through retail. And perhaps even more importantly, how to decide whether retail is the next right step for your business at all. One of the things I've learned through entrepreneurship is that there is no single path to building a successful company. Some brands thrive in retail. Some thrive direct to consumer. Some build hybrid models. And some discover that scaling sustainably means saying, "Not yet," or even, "Not for us."
All of those decisions can be smart ones. The key is understanding the realities behind the opportunity so you can build intentionally instead of reactively. If this series sparked questions for you about growth, leadership, scaling, retail strategy, or the operational side of building a product-based business, I'd love to support you further. You can learn more about my work, coaching, speaking, and the Big Gorgeous Goals framework at www.julieellis.ca.
And if you're a founder navigating growth decisions in real time, you can also learn more about my Pocket Coach program. It's a voice note based coaching designed to give entrepreneurs strategic support, perspective, and decision-making guidance exactly as you need them. Because sometimes the most valuable thing in business, it's not another course or another framework. It's about being able to have the right conversation at the right moment. If you enjoyed this series, I'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, or share it with another entrepreneur who's trying to decide what growth should look like for them. Thanks again for being here, and until next time, keep chasing your big gorgeous goals.